Hey guys! This is an auto-generated transcript for Episode 6, my interview with the translator Dong Li. I haven’t taken the time to tidy it, so bewarned: it’s messy and will absolutely mangle almost every Chinese word spoken!
One day, somewhere over the rainbow, I’ll tidy it up manually.
[music]
Angus Stewart
In the last episode of the podcast, we were talking about the wild Greatwall, a collection of poetry by Drew Drew, translated by Dong Li. Well, exciting us for this episode. Pretty much the whole thing is me interviewing Dong Li, and I learned some amazing things like how he found himself in the desert. But before we can get to the interview, I just like to do my pugs. So first of all, if you want the latest news on the podcast that Instagram is the best place to go. It’s at True Church fic TR, CH FYC. For of course translated Chinese fiction, you’ll find out what the next episode will be about on there ahead of time, which is always fun. And I also share fun, we nuggets there as well. The other thing I’d like to plug is the Patreon I’ve opened for the show, basically, because I’m paying about 100 pounds a year to get my son cloud hosting. And, you know, I’m not a rich man. So if you’d like to set up a monthly recurring donation to the show, you can get a shout out for yourself for $2 a month. If you get $20. I’ll just let you dictate any episode topic you like. I’m also probably going to open up a PayPal, so you can make a one off donation rather than a monthly one. Obviously, if you can’t afford to contribute to the show, don’t just enjoy the episodes, the whole point of podcasts is they’re free. So without further ado, let’s get on with the show. Here’s the interview I had with the amazing Dong Li.
// INTERVIEW BEGINS //
Hey, everybody, we’ve got Dong Li on the show. He’s the translator of Jews, collection and poetry the wild Greatwall. So really excited to have you on at dawn, would you like to tell us some things about yourself before we get started?
Dong Li
So right now I’m based in Germany, we have good weather, after coats last week. So the weather’s beautiful. And so, and I’m sort of an English language poet, but also translate from three languages, the Chinese from English and from German.
Angus
Cool. So how long have you been translating for now? Professionally, I mean,
Dong Li
professionally? I don’t know what to call it professional.
Angus
Yeah, tricky word.
Dong Li
So I think it’s after I started to write in English, like seriously in the States, I spent 10 years, almost 10 years in the States. And as I was doing my Master’s in Fine Arts, and I started to translate. That was the time I sort of picked up translation. And first was actually with literature, literary translation, and then also down my professional translations as well.
Angus
Cool. So what brought you to the States? And what inspired you to start writing in English, then?
Dong Li
I think it’s sort of a complicated, it’s both complicated. The question is both complicated and easy. scholarship, I was already studying in Beijing for a couple of years. And I was not very happy with the with the courses. And so I applied to just study in the States. And as a transfer student, it was very difficult to get a scholarship. So I sort of applied to start over in the States. And, and still, it was sort of difficult, but I was I was able to get a scholarship from a sort of unique college in the middle of the desert in California. It’s called Teacher’s College. And so I got a scholarship and I think it was really in the desert. I really got close to sort of poetry. I think it’s the desert, I think, really, it’s the desert that gave me a sort of boys because it’s a very close knit community with only 26 students, all male. And the school just turned co Ed last year. And but it has been it’s been a sort of educational experiment for over the years. So it’s, it’s sort of been there for a long time in the desert, unknown outside of the United States. And so that’s where I really picked up English and did a lot of philosophy and milked cows. And it’s also a cattle ranch. So every student has like manual duties on campus. Amazing. Yeah, so that was a really cool experience. So you’re really in the American West and you’re milking cows and you know, trying to do this social experiment and say in the middle of nowhere, and the valley is about like an hour away from a village Piceance it’s really in the middle of nowhere, you need like an hour to get to the closest town. So I think that isolation also helps quite a bit. So I think flooding became a way of expressing myself. And I think I picked up English because it gives me a little bit of distance from the skills that I have. Because I think the poetic acts or you know, writing itself is pretty reflective. I think with some distance and you’re dealing with, you know, I was dealing with some Chinese materials and, you know, using English, I think it opens up some possibilities. And, yeah, that’s, that’s how it sort of began.
Angus
That’s an amazing story. So when I was looking for things to talk about in the episode about the wild, great wall, so I was looking for information about yourself and also Juju. And and just from reading your author bio, I would never have guessed that you’d done all that stuff in the desert. It’s amazing. So next question, these days, what do you read for fun? Or if funds to frivolous award? What do you read for pleasure?
Dong Li
I read a lot of German stuff. For fun, and also for this sort of have been living in this country for quite a few years now. And picking up the language and also teach a translation class that a university Chinese, so I, I do read for classes, but I also read a lot of, you know, German poetry I picked up. And also I read French. So I also read, French authors really put on this sort of meditative for me, I love France, and identifies a lot of passion. And so sort of love that kind of the language and literature. Now in Germany, I’m reading a little bit of more French literature.
Angus
Yeah, that was something and so I know that you didn’t write the Well, great. Well, but I remember noticing, as I was reading through that, a lot of the references to Western things were continental European things. So it seems like that’s right up your alley.
Dong Li
Yeah, exactly. So So actually, I think in the last episode, you mentioned, quote, layer, right? So I thought, Wow, that’s a really famous poem I recited before. And so so so so I just use the French version. You have the origin or instead of the English translation, and they sort of have to explain, right? What that English has, you know, which English translation should be the one to, on and so forth. I thought, Okay, I’ll just put on the original
Angus
was an interesting choice. So jumping forward a wee bit to The Wild Great Wall and Zhu Zhu. So I know that the article you put on World Literature Today, talk to me a bit about how you guys first kind of connected, but I wanted to know, how long have you been reading his poetry before you reached out to him?
Dong Li
I think it was sort of, I think it was in grad school. I was doing this master financing, creative writing. And I was writing my own poems in English. And I was sort of also translating quite a bit of authors. And no, actually, it was before that I did my undergrad in comparative literature. And I did a thesis on translation, translating Chinese poetry. So at that time, I was looking at authors. And so I was sort of really struck by tutus brilliance at the time, I thought, different from the other authors, especially the authors, who have been known in the US like the mom known the mystery school poets, or the MOMO school poets. And known in the West Coast for a while and for political, or ideological reasons, or, you know, for their own poetic merits. I thought it was sort of quite interesting, it was also quite a, quite a challenge to translate them. And so I showed some of my early translations to one of the professors there, and that professor was saying, maybe it’s not the right, or the perfect power to Chancellor, right. Because I think people already have, you know, people in the Translate literary translation where they already have the sort of perception or an idea of how Chinese poetry should sound and should be like, and the world, you know, kind of themes they should touch on. And I think it was sort of a little bit different at the time, there was already quite a few years ago, there was probably 2011 2010 2010 around 2010 2929, I would say, and so I was sort of challenge to I thought, Okay, I’ll make it work. So, yeah, so and then got in touch with him and said, He was a little bit difficult, because he’s kind of a reserved person and and the presses in China, they are very hard to get in touch and they don’t forward your information or your calls, authors. So it took me a little bit to get his phone number. And so then I saw him on the phone. And it was sort of a little bit sceptical at first, right? Because you know, this guy only from, you know, the middle of nowhere from the US and calling me and wanting to test my poetry, of course, I understand. And I was translating into English, which is not my mother tongue. So of course, I totally understand. Yeah,
Angus
I suppose that’s the magic of the internet, you get to people can kind of just throw out a line without having to necessarily go through person a what, you know, A, B, or C? was like, Oh, yes. So what you said about the kind of the resistance you met in the States about translating to do because he was a bit different? I think I might have an idea what your answer might be, but I’m not certain. So what do you think sets Juju apart from other Chinese poets who are known in the West or in the English speaking world? What’s different about him?
Dong Li
I think, you know, I, it’s a sort of, I think, a super complicated issue. And I think, you know, the so called exotic poets, I don’t necessarily think, you know, are their poems touch on the issues of exile? Or are their poems stuff political. But I think there, there were some ideological issues behind that. And I think for him, I think he’s just concerned about, you know, about his own politics to some sometimes, but I would say also a little bit on soft cystic, I would say, you know, he’s concerned with his own politics. And I think that to some extent, it’s also another way of doing Chinese poetry, it’s just slightly different than the normal school hours, or the second generation of models, dropouts, or the you know, more academic poets, or poets or working academia, I think it’s just a little bit of an outsider is not really in the scene in China at the time, by now he sort of more and more visible in Chinese poetry, but at the time, I don’t think it was there much in the scene, he wasn’t invited to a lot of poetry festivals, or conferences and stuff. So he’s not really in the mainstream. And even though he had sort of a couple prizes, I think, earlier in his career, and then he sort of stopped, because I think, you know, he earned his bread by by doing curation of art shows and stuff. And also by doing so he was, you know, slightly going off the grid for load.
Angus
It’s interesting. So remember, in my podcast, I mentioned the word exile that pops up in the poems a few times. And you mentioned exile poets, and one of your answers. So, perhaps, for my benefit on the listeners benefit? What would you call an exiled Chinese poet? And his does do is he himself an exile? In your opinion?
Dong Li
I think I think, you know, for me, every every poet is exiled, before he or she finds finds the language, right? I think that’s, you know, everybody is designed to, you know, from an aesthetic point of view, everybody, every poet is exiled, before he or she finds the language for CourseBuilder material. I think the novel conception of an exotic Chinese poet is someone who’s sort of living who went through political persecution and then when receives right I think that’s the common conception of what an exotic photos and or those who are still living abroad and but to true I think he’s also exiled but it’s a kind of different exile, more like internal exile because you’re still living in China work in China and thriving in China, I think. And I think he’s exile is more internal, I think a five years from his, from the predominant poetic language at the time. And to the extent I think he’s sort of picked by and shown that he’s had an internal exile, but overseas is also you know, he’s been travel travelling quite a bit overseas and becoming an National, that’s also kind of exotic, right? Because I’m going to the polls, and he’s not a super political poet, and he does not claim, you know, to be a politically exerted poets, right. So he does not write about politics directly or about that, you know, that period. And so I think he has this sort of double internal, but also external internal exile, you know, in his home country, but also external exam when he, whenever he’s travelling overseas.
Angus Stewart
Yeah, I suppose that’s the cost of doing things your own way.
Dong Li
Exactly, exactly.
Angus Stewart
It’s a really interesting answer. So, here’s a question about yourself, when you were putting together the wild, Great Wall, were you trying to put together kind of a whole picture of all of Jews poetry, are we picking from his poetry selectively to build a particular feeling or a particular kind of collection.
Dong Li
So um, I was, as I was able to do the selection went to, and we got a fellowship at the Vermont Studio centre, social artists colony in the, in the US in Vermont, and they started in 2013, or 2013, a fellowship for Chinese poets and translators of Chinese poetry. So, um, we got a grant to, to, to have this residency together. So at that time, we’ve put a lot of talk about putting together a book. And so I just, I think the, the selection was easier for me, and even though I had some kind of resistance from children, so I just picked all the poems that I liked, and I left to to strike out upon it in alike. And, of course, and then we sort of I was trying to put, put the poems that we both like together, and we’re trying to find an arc. And then I thought, maybe we’re just to the, you know, chronology, I think, is sort of easiest and also clear, because I think, for two, two, I think it’s pretty clear, you know, those, those four periods, I think, you know, his part and how his products has evolved and developed in periods.
Angus Stewart
Yeah. So I, because I only read through it once I, I could feel a progression and maybe the places he was going to in from, but I think if you were to go, for someone who didn’t know the man himself, you might have to go back and read a few times to see the the changes, but do you know, anything? Do you know anything in his life that kind of made those? Four? It’s four periods, isn’t it? It’s not five, four? Or is there any life events that split those things apart? Or was it all kind of internal poetic stuff?
Dong Li
I think, I think the in the first period, I think he was writing really isolated, he was super isolated. And he actually he was teaching other teaching law, I think, at a university in Shanghai. And then he quit his job, he quit his, his, his job at the University to pursue writing. And it was quite difficult to to make to make your 11 by fighting on writing, poetry, and so forth. And so in the first period, I think these poems are more if he will, he thought sort of his internal vibe homes, my understanding of it, even though there’s a lot of I mean, he’s reading furiously at bedside, I think that also helped to cure his loneliness at the time, I have a lot of friends. So even during that time, his his reading was quite broad. That’s why they were like Ocelot, Yan and Swedish friends, and so forth. And so that’s from that period. The second period when he, I think he made it made a name by letting art criticism, and he moved to Beijing to become our curator, and he has been quite successful. And that time, I think history really slowly comes into play. And I think during that period was more like, boost mode was great was Motown and so forth. Not necessarily that he’s whining about a gene. But I think history slowly enters, enters into play during that period. And then the third one, I think it’s really the history is loaded with history and historical references, historical narratives, and that’s also a period when he’s, I think his outlook is becoming more international and of travels and he was invited to France and to attend Poetry Festival. And, and I mean, he’s, he’s been influenced by French modernist poetry what layer so forth. And that would be that period. And the last period, I think that’s sort of his becoming sort of more outspoken, I would say, I think weapons to Florence, the poem florist in your in your last podcast, and he was saying, okay, you know, I mean, normally, he’s not so straightforward how to do this not really a straightforward poet. And he’s been pretty straightforward and adamant about, you know, why should Chinese poets or political poetry for the Western audience, right, they should also be able to write about beauty and truth, the way they see it? I think that’s the sort of more outspoken period, even though most of the conversation during that period weren’t that, you know, Spokane except this one.
Angus
Yeah, I suppose that so we irony that in saying, Listen, I shouldn’t have to be political. He’s actually going from being not political at all to kind of indirectly political.
Dong Li
Yeah, that’s sort of his, his political gesture, because to some extent, you know, if you’re speaking for the poets, or for yourself or for poetry, and you’re saying, Okay, why should Chinese poets, so I think that’s already a political stance there you’re
Angus
proposing? Sure. Okay. So another question about yourself and your translation is just which parts of the translation Did you find the hardest and what things were a lot easier?
Dong Li
I think it’s all very difficult. I think I’m a perfectionist. So I, I failed quite a bit. And I always fail. And, you know, I’m still embarrassed by all my translations. So it’s, it’s kind of hard to say, and I, I don’t have a favourite poll, right. I don’t have a favourite translation. But I do find the rhythm. It’s hard to translate to those rhythm. I think it’s not the word itself. But I think it’s the rhythm. It has a sort of a meandering proceed with in his pants, even though there were like passionate firsts in between, I think it’s those rhythms that are really hard to capture. I think it’s also his tone, his, you know, his tone comes throughout, you know, out from from those rhythms. So I think I was having a bit of hard time capturing rhythms. I think that’s, that’s probably the hardest part to capture, especially in those will proceed.
Angus
Okay. Makes sense. I mean, it’s hard for me to course, I’ve only read the English translation. So it’s hard for me to to understand that one. But yeah, I can I can kind of imagine. So, there was one word that I kind of waffled about in my podcast, it was a south of Yanxi, which I checked, was a translation of Jiangnan. Think I mentioned on the podcast, that was a word I learned when I was living in Shanghai, reflecting on places that lived in China, which was Shanghai, Judge Jung and the places of travels, which were mostly judged on and Jiangsu. So Jiangnan was a word that was on my mind fairly often. Anyway. Was your translation to south of Yangtze? Was that one that you felt was one of the trickier things? Or do you think that’s a fairly straightforward translation?
Dong Li
I still I still feel that maybe I could do better. I think it’s a hard one. Because the title is like a republic, right? So now go up like so you have to make Gianna into a place into sort of a proper now. So I just took the easiest route and make it into South of the NC because I think UFC conjures up some of images of China is actually China also refers to the NC Delta. Right? And I don’t necessarily want to use like, against the delta of Republic, but that’s right. And then a republic, which is sort of political. And I feel like sometimes the MC I think it could just do just, you know, a very straightforward little translation probably would do in this case, because I really cannot find it. Translation. If you do like film that then they have, you know, anybody who was reading in English would not have any idea what that is. Yeah. And but with the MC that I think that really helps a little bit self again, see that imagine that’s the play itself of the MC, and then a republic. Okay, that’s sort of, you know, maybe a metaphorical Republic. So I thought, okay, maybe, but that’s your right. That’s the tricky. Yeah.
Angus
Were you tempted to leave a footnote for that one explaining what Jiangnan might mean? Or would that have just been too ridiculous?
Dong Li
I intentionally, Jenna wants to leave a footnote because I feel like because in that home, town and cocoa code yourself of Yancey Republic, I think that this essentially, has this historical allusion to John, right? Yes, please. I feel like it’s making a metaphorical so I thought, Okay. It’s better not to leave it. But no, if people you know, people are interested, they could look it up, they could know the historical references. I just want to leave it a little bit more open.
Angus
Yeah, I feel that. One kind of fun thing about living in this day and age is if you see a word you don’t recognise in a book, whether it’s a translated book or not. If you’ve got a smartphone in your pocket, you can just pop the word into Google and then see what Google tells you.
Dong Li
Yeah, exactly. I think both come from both where words come from other words, I think that’s, that’s, that would be my, you know, no, I think that’s a great thing to have and to do, is really to let readers to go to other words, other places, other books, this, this book should be an invitation to other books.
Angus
Yeah, absolutely. That’s some of the best books I’ve read, have been just named in other books, or have been kind of tangential rather than things of I don’t know, being given for Christmas or finding the bestsellers list. Anyway, moving on to an almost completely different question. Are you a member of any Chinese to English or English to Chinese translation groups, or any other different organisations or associations of translators?
Dong Li
I work with some sort of, I’m not an official member, because I want a sort of him. Hi, I’m going from 10 America. So for my translation of not true, true, but, but another Chinese person means I want a translation grant in 2014, for translating the Chinese poetry for me. That’s also why I asked me that’s also why I was able to publish this book deal with phone and media. That’s, that’s sort of the behind the scenes story. Okay. So at the time, he was the founder of the pub, the publishing house owning media, contact me asking for my manuscript that time, you know, as I, after I won the award, the manuscript of the other Chinese call, it was not complete, complete yet. So I said, Okay, I have this manuscript ready. Come to God like to take a look. So that’s the purpose. So anyways, so I’m actually in the Pan Pan network. And recently I’ve been working with with, with Pathlight so Paper Republic, which is awesome. With Eric and with Jeremy, Jeremy and Eric both are fabulous translators from the Chinese. The so so so I do work with them. Well,
Angus
you know, I managed to sit down with Jeremy at the London Book Fair and he’s he’s really funny.
Dong Li
I have not met him personally. Yeah, so we’ve been planning a lot
Angus
Yeah, and me being this absolute Junior, who is not a translator myself. I just did try not to say anything stupid in case I made myself look like a fool. But that’s that’s cool. Because then all the research I’ve been doing for my studies, a lot of it seems to point back to People Republic and all the reading is doing about you it kind of seemed like you were kind of floating out there on your own so it’s cool to know that you’re part of that organisation. You’re
Dong Li
not like as an official members still still like my independence. I like working for them on a case by case basis. So if they have a piece of poems or piece of fiction or software they will send it to me an hour take a look whether I could do it or not. And so by enjoy working with me, they also have you know, other great translators will also like editors like Aaron Goodness is. She’s an editor for life. And she’s also been
Angus Stewart
awesome. So speaking of being a little bit of a lone wolf, what’s it like doing your work in Germany, and in European mainland European languages rather than residing in, say, the US or the UK and strictly doing English and Chinese, Chinese and English,
Dong Li
I think it’s a personal choice. Of course, personal choice also comes at a cost. And I truly love the French and German languages. And I started to learn French and German in the States. And I was able to spend some time with a couple of scholarships in Europe. And I feel like I have some sort of foot basic whip of English language up to now. And I feel like I want to expand myself. So So I was thinking, writing quite a bit in English and translating quite a bit. I thought, okay, and also at that time, I got two scholarships. And there was also a personal note to it, actually. So I was, you know, after my MFA, I got a fellowship as a poet of residence in residence at Colgate University, upstate New York. After that, I was doing like residency hopping. So I was going through residency is quite a few residency like seven or eight oh, my goodness, yeah, in the US. And, yeah, that was a fabulous experience for me. And I was also able to, you know, support myself and living on like, two or $3,000 a year or something. And that was sort of fun. And then I was sort of a little bit sick of it, because it’s sort of you have to amount or seven weeks or nine weeks here and there in the train, you’re staying with friends and so forth. I thought, I really need to root for more.
Angus
There’s the exile life right there.
Dong Li
Yeah, because for me, I really need to have you know, this space, have a routine, you know, have a very boring life and not going out or not hanging out with a lot of people you find really immersed in a particular piece. So I found it at times. A little bit frustrating. And then, so I’m looking at fellowships. And so I got two fellowships in Germany. So I was the homework fellowship and research as an editor on German, Chinese and American poetry and, and now got another fellowship, I think writers should apply. So there was an initial solitude, there was the the solitude. So basically, you’re living in a castle with other artists of different disciplines.
Angus
So amazing. So from a cattle ranch to a castle.
Dong Li
Castle. Yeah. Your own studio in the castle. And I think the deadline is the end of this month. So I think, you know, other artists out there should apply.
Angus
Yeah. And Olivia up in a castle.
Dong Li
So so so I did that. And I, at that time, one of my great mentors died in the US. I was sort of, I thought, it’s awful for me. And I thought, that’s also really a signal for me to, to go on my own way, not just in poetry, but also in life really, to, you know, to go my own way, so I thought, Okay, why not, you know, to be in Europe and to to really understand some of the forces of European and American poetry I think it’s like House said Merwin should go to, to go to France to study the Cipro is right thing with the source languages. And that’s an interesting thing. That’s also quite inspiring to hear. So I thought, okay, I love you know, also the other languages and we have a one lifetime so I’m not giving up, you know, English or Chinese. I think maybe I’m just expanding myself with, you know, stumbling to expand myself.
Angus
Well, I suppose this isn’t a very genius point. It’s quite obvious, but going from English into German and French, those are all languages in the same little, you know, family tree, so at least it’s not as radical a leap as Chinese to English.
Dong Li
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, exactly. If you’re doing professional translation, all three translations, you’ll notice that you’ll have more pages. If you’re translating a piece of Chinese literature. If it’s 25 pages, they may end up with 45 pages.
Angus Stewart
yeah, yeah, concise language. There’s a guy who’s in the writers workshop I go to who’s been successful with his children’s lit book. And he’s written in English. It’s not massive, but he has to his editors told him, he’s got to cut it down by 20%. And the only reason is because they want to translate it into German. And it’s going to inflate with the translation.
Dong Li
Oh, okay. Yeah, I think the Germans really, I mean, logic is important. For the language, I think it’s, it’s also like, precise, but sometimes extra, not very physical language. Yeah. And so every language has, you know, its own qualities. And I feel like, you know, everything, you know, every language is pointing to the language. And words that we all share. I think that’s, that’s something I’m sort of going after to experience, you know, the different forms, and of that language and how it folds out in this time in history. And in, in a different forms. So I really love just basic words, not necessarily like I love a particular language. I love these, you know, French, German, and English, Chinese, these languages, but also just words. Right? These, these are the common treasure, I think, and, yeah, to be part of it, to use it, and to cherish and not to abuse. Fight for it. You know, I think that’s that, that gives me a great feeling.
Angus
Oh, yeah. Actually, what you said about German being logical, it reminded me so I did German school for six years. It’s mostly forgotten now. But the thing I liked about German was the spelling, how it followed rules on like English spelling. And then the next language I learned to any degree was Chinese. And my favourite thing about Pinyon is that it’s like German, the spelling doesn’t mess around like English spelling does.
Dong Li
Ah, oh, that’s great. So we have some, you know, common languages,
Angus
ambition and vision. But really, my German is so faded that my Chinese is better than my German and My Chinese isn’t great. So anyone? Sorry, were you gonna say something? They’re welcome. Yeah, yeah. Overtime, for sure. And I noticed whenever if I’m inside Germany, my German gets, like twice as good things come back that have, you know, been sleeping. Yeah, yeah.
Dong Li
So just a word on the German language. I think that the nouns are very proud because they’re capitalised. Yeah. Sure. In the language, right. And they also use it as, you know, it’s almost as a verb feeling. And, and also, I think the German additives there now, clutter as close, as you know, as English agitate, sometimes it’s a lot of choices. And sometimes you have the habit of plotters, clutter the sentence.
Angus
Interesting. So my next question is totally unrelated to everything we’ve just been talking about. So this is, again, something I might be looking at, in my dissertation that’s coming up. So do you think that given the China, especially the People’s Republic of China, it’s got a rising kind of status in the world? We’re hearing more about in the news over here, and so on? Do you think that’s having an effect on what kind of Chinese writing is reaching English language readers?
Dong Li
I don’t think it has, why now has an immediate effect yet. I think there was a sort of growing sense of interest. I also work with with publishers and agents a little bit. And I do notice that the right situation is still not great. It’s still very hard to sell Chinese authors in Europe, or in the US. So this is growing. And I think it’s it really has to do with with the lack of great translators, because the translation in China and particularly, it’s not paid well, it’s not really respected. And that was taxes. And so it’s very hard to find really excellent translators. And I think it’s the same case in the US or Germany. It’s really hard to find translators and translators could not really survive by literally translation. Most of them cannot
Angus
I remember him. So in my course, the only time anyone talked to me about buying and selling rubrics, rights between China, it was about academic publishing. So I asked my teacher who’s a German teacher, a post grad student, a PhD student, asked her, does the academic publishers have any trouble? Since rates are a little bit different in China with the Western world? And you said, no, no, no, it’s no problem. But I suppose academic writings one thing, and, you know, trade fiction books are a totally different thing.
Dong Li
No, it’s a different piece, because I think a lot of academic work in Europeans particularly, they’re pretty expensive. So usually, they have, I think it’s subsidised by by the writer itself or by by the university. So it’s, it’s not meant for the, you know, the common audience.
Angus
Yeah. So, on the note of interesting kinds of Chinese writing, reaching the Western world, the thing that really got me interested in all this stuff was probably when I first heard about Santi, the three body problem by the opposition. And then noticing the other books translated by his translator, Ken Leo, and that were starting to pop up in in bookshops. And online I’m seeing maybe it’s because of where I look online, but there seems to be if not an increasing amount of coverage, at least a can these things consistently are being covered in English. So do you have any? Have you read any of these Chinese sci fi books? And do you have any thoughts about them?
Dong Li
I have not read any of the Sci Fi books. But I do know, they’re, they’re getting super popular in the States, and also getting very popular in Germany. I actually also know the two translators for his 70 books in Germany. So. So I think it’s a fabulous thing. It’s sci fi. It’s, you know, it’s the general literature. But I do think that’s a great thing that’s happening to China and to Chinese authors. So it will be the beginning. And I also hope that people will have more interest also in literature in more serious literature. And so, yeah, no, I don’t have have any opinion on the Sci Fi psycho.
Angus
I can say, a thing I liked about them was that, so maybe, maybe something you in juja would appreciate, too, is that, although they’ve become popular in the West, you know, they’re not taking an incredibly, you know, they’re not taking a political view that Western audiences would soak up, you know, about how awful everything in China is. But on the other hand, they do have some interesting commentary, and dimensions, and all from kind of a Chinese perspective. They’re not massively political books at all. But that that elements there and in an interesting way, that’s all I’ll say, without spoiling it.
Dong Li
Okay, that’s great. So maybe I should I should read those books at some point. Yeah.
Angus
And there’s one I just finished reading recently. It’s a collection put together by Ken Leo. And he’s got a big intro. And in the intro, he does talk about ways Western audiences might be tempted to read the stories, and all the ways you might expect. And he says, here’s why you shouldn’t do that, that I did. And it kind of meshes with even things I was seeing in doodoos. Poetry. So I think, yeah, for people who are getting read in both places, or working in translation, there seems to be this. I don’t know, based on what I’ve seen, there’s an awareness that there’s like certain cliches that really ought to be avoided, if you want to get a full appreciation of what Chinese writers are writing.
Dong Li
Exactly. And also, I have to point out, I think serious literature could also be popular in popular does not necessarily mean it does not have literary merits right. Now, that would be my view, and I hope folks, you know, good books should be successful. Good. You know, I think as long as they’re good books, right, chance. The other thing I think people you know, who have, you know, certain assumptions about China or Chinese literature, I think, I hope they will, you know, have the opportunity now, China’s really sending, you know, supporting authors to go come overseas, and I hope they will actually have the opportunity to meet those authors right to speak, and maybe through an interpreter to really have a real experience with, I think, or go to China, you know, have an experience to see for themselves to judge for themselves. And I think that will be more interesting that will add an interesting layer to there, through the reading experience.
Angus
I’ve forgotten her name, but there was at least one Chinese author in that collection invisible planets because the stories are ordered author by author is terrible. I don’t have the book in front of me, I forgot her name, but she’s an academic as well as a writer of stories. And she, she’s bilingual. So if she were to go over to say, the states and give a you know, do an author event, she wouldn’t even need a translator. She could speak directly to her Western fans. But anyway, I’m waffling. So, as a final question, because we’re about reaching 45 minutes now, which is usually about how long the show’s last. Yeah, we’ve been talking almost an hour crazy. Do you have any books in any language, but probably especially English, that you’d like to recommend to listeners of the show? I don’t know how many listeners we have. But for Future Past, present, and future listeners, what would you recommend?
Dong Li
I mean, I would recommend probably, first, Lauren Niedriger, an American poet, who dies, right? To left a miserable life and probably a little bit happy. For the end of her life. I think it’s a fantastic poet, and not so recognised. She was in the so called objective. Objective is school of poetry. And so she will be a fantastic poet too. You know, I say I did screams after I read law Niedriger. I thought, well, maybe I should also try to become an American poet.
Angus
I’m sure they’d have you. Yeah.
Dong Li
And then I would recommend sort of my, one of my mentors and city riot who died a few years ago. And so any books by CD will be great. And of course the rosemary keep water for Skander. Is are
Angus
that was that the guy you mentioned earlier?
Dong Li
With i Yeah, that’s the Yazidi. Right? So she’s, I think she’s one of the, you know, to my mind, one of the greatest poets in American poetry. And ask me, I was compiling, I think, compiling a trilingual anthology, in response to know one of her poems after she died. So this, this, this thing will be published in China, and most probably also in Germany.
Angus
Cool. And just since it’s what the show is about, is there anything that’s been translated from Chinese to English that you could recommend for the listeners? Yeah,
Dong Li
For prose or poetry?
Angus
well, since since you’re a poet, maybe poetry, but feel free to name some pros as well, if you like.
Dong Li
I mean, zipper cross has been a lot of Chinese poetry with in partnership with the University of Hong Kong. So they’re introducing a series of books by Chinese poets, so for the past few years, so if you’re really interested in Chinese poetry, so there are, you know, a lot of poets in that series. So that’s quite interesting. And I think translations by by Jeffrey young, I really like many of his translations, and he recently translated a prose book by by the Chinese portrayed. Nice. I mean, he’s also a poet, and his own words I really admire and often translations, also Tableau Saturday.
Angus
If I remember right, didn’t Geoffrey Jung translate one of the 14 books, the Uighur land one?
Dong Li
Exactly. He translated the weaker one. And he translated those health balls. Notes. Oh, yeah. also translated the great Song Dynasty politics issue. That’s quite a set right there. Well, protect the Hinton David Hinton’s. Also classical potion is one of the best translators.
Angus
Nice. Well, thank you so much for your recommendations. And for all your time. I think I’m all I have questions. So yeah, thank you so much.
Dong Li
Thank you so much birds. Hi. Beautiful chat. I hope you have good wetter on your side.
Angus
Somehow even in Scotland, yes, we have managed to get good weather. Who knows? How long it will last but it’s I’ve been through this whole chat. I’ve been looking out the window and I’ve been looking at Blue skies, somehow it’s a miracle. Okay. Okay, so have a great day.
Dong Li
Okay, you too. Okay. Bye bye. Thank you so much.
// INTERVIEW ENDS //
Angus
I do, Lou. So that was me talking to Dong li translator of the wild Greatwall on, honestly was swell guy fab gay. Really enjoyed that chat. So that’s episode six reached his head now. So just to reiterate those plugs I gave at the start, you can help support the show on our Patreon, I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. Watch out for a PayPal where you could give a one off donation, I’ll have that ready pretty soon as well. And I’ll put a link to fully media, the publishers of the world Great Wall and the show notes as well as well. Perhaps any other little bonus nuggets I can find. In any case. Thank you everyone for listening. Please do subscribe. Please tell anyone who might be interested in the show that they can find us on iTunes or any other major podcast provider. And until then, until next time, it’s zai jian!
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The Translated Chinese Fiction Podcast 